On pursing a creative path without the proper credentials

What is the crux of Mouthful to you?

I started writing Mouthful on the Upper West Side around when I was working on a remake of Annie Hall starring 89 year-olds. That experience changed my life. And I became best friends with a 94 year old until he passed at 99 last year.

Then, I was making these TV shows to tell bigger and better stories about older people and then the pandemic hits. It was just me and I had Central Park to myself. I was going on jogs around Central Park topless or as my girlfriend likes to correct me, “shirtless.” But the energy felt topless. I was topless, which was a big deal for me. I was listening to Lou Reed and the Velvet Underground. I was dictating poems, and thoughts into my phone while running around. That became how I wrote for two or three years.

I’m not trying to write funny poems, but I do think, naturally, when I write I am seeking, or I’m using humor as my Trojan horse to make my poems and poetry accessible. I wanted Mouthful to be entertaining. There’s very few poetry books where I love every single poem, but there are like five, or six I’m obsessed with, and I’ll buy, you know, spend whatever, just for [those five or six] poems. When I was performing, over the past few years, a lot of people would come up and we would get a lot of people who are not into poetry and they would come up to me after, and they would say, “I don’t like poetry, but I love whatever you just did.”

A lot of your work really encapsulates the zaniness of New York, whether it’s interpersonally, or your interactions with other people. Would you say that this poetry collection is very New York City?

The cool answer is yeah, but really my inspiration was the freedom of being on the Upper West Side. I was living with my friend and his family and his teenagers. And my best friend who was 99 was living nearby. I was going to Zabar’s. I was very much in the world of Nora Ephorn. I just got dumped in March of 2020, I was watching a lot of rom coms and Sex in the City. I just discovered Drake and he was new to me. I don’t feel a disconnect to anything in New York. And I think that speaks to where Dream Baby [Press] likes to throw readings.

What is the significance of the Teddy Bear book cover?

I’ve been obsessed with Paddington Bear, for you know, since I knew of him, but I didn’t really understand the power of Paddington until the first film. I love the way he interacts with the world. I think it’s so sweet. And it’s constantly illuminating people’s lives. I love the story of Paddington that the author was inspired by the kids who came on the Kindertransport. And it’s a loaded background. In the movie, they modeled his movements off of Buster Keaton. And I’m obsessed with Buster Keaton. There’s a real sense of sweetness.

I didn’t even have an alternative cover. I lived next to The Strand on the Upper West Side and another used bookstore. I would stare at the covers and I was like, what do I want to see? I love the idea of a bear staring back at you.

Do you think desire is an intrinsically messy ordeal?

Yes. Because there’s a lot of desires that I think a lot of people have, that they really wish they didn’t have. And desire is so interesting in this book since so much of it is about battling shame. I think you can’t control your desire and that leads to a lot of great things, but it also puts a lot of people in a lot of funky situations they probably wish they didn’t get in. It also leads to a lot of humor, not just sexually, but with desire I have a complicated relationship with food. And I think that’s a desire that really dictates people’s lives. Control and desire are forces constantly at war with one another.

What were the trials and tribulations of publishing independently?

The concept of doing it independently was so exciting, because so much of my inspiration comes from the ethos of punk. And I was so inspired by zine culture. And all I read was punk biographies, from 2018 to 2023, and punk adjacent biographies. When I was learning about punk in college, it was just musicians, picking up cameras and making films even though they didn’t know how or they weren’t technologically trained, and filmmakers picking up musical instruments and figuring it out. I just love that ethos. And I wanted to do that. I thought it would be important for me to learn, especially with putting out other people’s books to have an understanding of what works and how to do it. And that we should start with mine since if I’m going to fuck anybody’s book up it should be mine.

I started from zero, learning about paper textures, and learning about paper stock and paper weight, and binding and margins. Even on some bestsellers [books], the words are in the margins, the gutter of the book and I hated that. When you don’t have a ton of money, it’s not like you can just hire a bunch of people to do it. I had a lot of really good friends who stepped in and helped me get it over the line. It’s trial and error and it just takes time. Time was on my side because I have a job. I don’t need to sell my poetry book to pay the rent. It really is like learning a new language, trying to explain that you want to “normal paper texture,” which is really 70 pound interior eggshell natural paper stock. All of this to just get to a normal looking piece of paper.

And then, what’s marketing? What is Dream Baby? What is the Dream Baby version of marketing? We’ve done so many crazy readings, but what is my version of a book launch party? Working through that took months to put together. I really love just putting on a show and creating memorable experiences for people.

As it pertains to poetry, there’s a lot of literary gatekeeping in terms of accessibility and in certain sectors of poetry it’s super academic…did you feel you needed to break that?

Totally. Part of me felt rejected, but also, I entered a world where I had no credentials. Nobody knew who I was. I was just like, I’m gonna start taking writing poetry seriously. My friends, they’re just not into poetry, they don’t go to readings. Whether or not they like the poetry, I do. It’s good for me to hear what is happening. In the outside world, there’s a stereotypical idea of poetry. It’s intellectual, it’s obtuse. The average person does not want to engage with poetry.

I thought there was space to make poetry and poetry readings more fun and more exciting. A big inspiration of mine is also Vaudeville, and I really love a variety show where you don’t know what you’re going to get. My version of poetry or my definition is so loose. If you look at some of the writer’s we’ve worked with, some are accomplished serious writers, but also people who make memes or who have a really strong voice on Twitter. I have such a loose definition on what I think poetry is and I see it everywhere. You know, there’s competition, you’re competing with social media and Netflix and streaming. How can we create live shows that get people out of their houses?

There’s this perception that poetry isn’t entertaining. Even with your book launch, you were able to present it in a super theatrical way. In your head, how do you imagine yourself reciting poetry? Is it a concert every time like you’re Drake?

Literally, with less grace. I very much picture our shows. I want the same energy as a rock or punk show. It’s kind of a circus. Somebody described it as an underground circus. You don’t know what you’re going to get. It’s loud, it’s fun. I want my poetry to be entertaining, right? I feel so grateful for all the amazing things that have happened with Dream Baby and it’s because we’re really, really prioritizing putting on a good show, entertaining people. But again, my definition of poetry is loose. I love Richard Brautigan and Lou Reed and Leonard Cohen. I love lyrics as poetry. I love Drake. Lyrics are a huge inspiration and so are rom coms.

Is Mouthful your concept album?

Definitely. All the poems work together thematically. Jemima [Kirke] said something so beautiful. She said this whole book is working through shame for me. I could not have written it six years ago. This whole book is working through it and owning it like sexual desires, and my body and going back to my childhood, looking at how my desires have evolved and manifested.