On leading with emotion

When I asked you to do this interview, you were like, “I am over the traditional Hollywood system. I’m happy to talk about that.” Why are you so over it?

First, let me check my privilege. I have very much benefited from the traditional Hollywood system. So let me not completely denigrate it. But what I will say is that as somebody who does, for better or worse, think of themselves as an artist, it can be hard work. Sometimes you will literally get a script that’s like a spreadsheet from your agents. They’ll say, “This is the type of show we want this year: Middle America, crosses racial divides, reaching across the aisle.”

I cannot create based on the spreadsheet. That is so crazy. That makes me feel insane. It completely contradicts the whole point of this. I actually did get into this to express myself, not express the interest of, you know, the Pepsi corporation.

The dynamic has always been fraught, but certainly this moment has turned the temperature up on that about 25,000 degrees. If I wasn’t already over it and ready to step out on my own, come what may, [the cancelling of DEI] was the final push. I’m like, “Oh no, I actually can’t do this. I can’t be in a notes meeting with somebody who has never been on set, never opened Final Draft, doesn’t even really watch TV, but is giving me the most heartbreaking notes.” I think I have to tell my story. If you like it, you like it. If you don’t, you don’t. And we can leave it at that. I’m just losing patience. I knew this day would come, though. I’m at my 10-year mark now and I knew that this day would come, and here we are.

You’re a very experienced writer and producer. Writing for shows like Brooklyn Nine-Nine, producing Loot starring Maya Rudolph… It is quite shocking that you’ve been at it for a while and still studio executives tell you that you don’t know what you are doing when you talk to them about original content. Why do you keep hearing that the films and TV shows that you want to make are risky?

I had this light bulb moment where I realized the way that Hollywood throws around the word risk and says, “This project is a risk,” or “This person would be a risk investment”—I’m like, this is white supremacist language. If someone is experienced in their field, that is no longer a risk at that point. They’re tried and true. Always with a new project, you don’t know how people will react. There’s some level of risk. The Matrix was the risk because nobody had done anything like that before. But the way that Hollywood talks about taking risks on certain creators, that language is super coded. It’s not neutral language. We shouldn’t pretend like it is.

There’s no way to guarantee what will work. Some reboots pop off, some reboots get absolute vitriol. Some unique small projects that you would think people wouldn’t even respond to are huge hits. You can’t predict, but they want to try to predict it. That is a whole complicated issue that really has to do with tech getting involved in the film industry in the last 15 years and fucking it up. And quote me on that.

Hollywood has lost its way and has really forgotten that the point is to make stories that people can relate to and that will live on forever. They’re just like, “Oh, it looks like if we make a movie based on the JELL-O IP, then people who eat JELL-O will see the JELL-O movie.” Hello, we’ve lost the plot.

I appreciate your candor as an artist who wants to make art. Is it hard to get funding to make things? What’s the economic hurdle?

Ultimately, as somebody who has never ever taken one economics class, I will tell you it is because of all of the consolidation. There used to be little places. Maybe I don’t want to go immediately to Warner Brothers, but there’s this mid-sized studio. So much consolidation has happened that there’s now like literally four guys who are in charge… If the powers that be don’t see a point in you, then they won’t give you money.

There are these bright spots. What keeps me going is every once in a while, the stars will align and somebody with decision-making power who sees the point of individual storytelling will green-light something and it will get made and it will be beautiful.

LA went through the fires. It was awful and we’re still rebuilding. This industry also has gone under fire—so much change, frustration, pain, and brokenness. I am a firm believer that fire is destructive but is also an opportunity for rebirth. There’s lots of people in my community who are like me and thinking, “Let’s build something else. Let’s build something that can work for our interest, that benefits everyone in our community, not just these people at the top.” I’m down to do that work if it means that we are no longer having to be literally held hostage by these corporate conglomerates. I’ll do whatever it takes. There are many, many, many other people who feel that way.

You are creating independently. And the titles of your independent projects are a little controversial, no? She’s All Fat and Pick Me. These are labels that we’re taught to be afraid of. How are you so unafraid?

She’s All Fat was a podcast that I co-created years ago. I can tell that a project is going to be worth doing when we get the title. A friend of ours came up with that title. We started in 2017. At that time, people were having these conversations about body positivity… It was really about me and my co-host and co-creator kind of reckoning with that on a personal level and then also on a media level, looking back at the media that we had taken in as kids and realizing how much damage that had done and unpacking it. Reclaiming labels is something that’s super important to me.

Your projects often delve into themes of identity and personal growth. How do you navigate the process of turning personal challenges and societal observations into narratives that resonate universally?

I think the weirdest thing about TV writing, and writing in general, is that it’s often not on purpose at all. I’ll be like, “Hey, I have an idea for something.” Then I’ll have a loved one read it and they’ll be like, “Oh, this is about your relationship with your grandma.” And I’m like, “What?”

[My short film] Pick Me is partly based on a true story, but lots of the parts that are more intimate and personal genuinely were not that intentional. It was just what was top of mind. You can’t fake that. There’s all this panic in this industry right now about AI and obviously it’s a concern, but I, maybe naively, am not that worried about it. Specifically when it comes to writing, people can tell when a story is written by a human being with a bleeding heart or when it’s spat out by a bot. I think studios think that audiences are stupid and they’re not. I think that you can tell when a story resonates with you and that’s because it’s true and it’s rooted in someone’s experience.

How does it feel for you to star and direct in addition to writing? These are new creative hats for you, right?

Yes, for sure. I have wanted to act for a long time. I was in a Mall of America commercial as a child. I don’t like to brag.

Way back in junior high, I used to direct these very adorable concepts for documentaries, doing investigative journalism around my school. I had an amazing film teacher—shout out Mr. Cassidy—who said, “You know you can go to film school and you can actually learn how to do this?” This was not in my frame of knowledge at all. I have immigrant parents. It was a big turning point and blessing that he was able to see this in me and encourage me. When I got to Northwestern in the film department, you pick a concentration. I picked screenwriting. I really wanted to learn how to do this on a foundational level. I threw myself into writing. For years that itch has been coming back: I want to direct. I want to direct.

And I’ve been intimidated 100% because it’s gate kept. There’s this big feeling that if you haven’t been doing it for years, or you haven’t been grandfathered in, that you’re not up to the task. As I rose the ranks as a writer, I would spend months on set for work and be like, “You know what? I could do that.” I realized that there’s tons of things that I don’t know and that you don’t have to know because you’re surrounded by people who are experts. Often I find film career people to be so generous and willing to share what they know, and everybody collaborates and adds to it. So I don’t have to know anything about lenses and I don’t know that I will anytime soon.

You’re hellbent on doing your own thing now. Love that for you. What would you say to your peers in Hollywood who aren’t putting themselves out there with original content? Do you understand waiting for a green light?

I 100% understand. Sometimes when I see on paper what I’m doing, it makes no sense at all. We’re in an industry that is shrinking. Now is the time I should be begging for a job on the Reba sitcom. If I was honestly smart, I would be doing that. But I am more emotionally led. I’m an Aries. I can’t be told what to do. I could never hate on [filmmakers working within the Hollywood system] because it’s hard to do it the traditional way. It’s hard to do it the independent way. It’s hard. And if you can figure out a way to make it work, I’m very grateful that you kept going.

I’ve always known you to be very funny. Who do you find funny? What makes you laugh?

Oh my gosh, this is an amazing question. Okay. Chris Fleming is an incredible comedian. He is a wonderful stand-up. I love Stavros Halkias. My friend described him as like the progressive Joe Rogan, which I think is pretty close. I love the Mess podcast, which is by Marie Faustin and Sydnee Washington. I was just crying listening to one of their episodes. There’s a special on Hulu called Cinnamon in the Wind by Kate Berlant, and I am her number one fan. My vision board’s in the background and there’s a picture of her on there. I’m number one, day one, John Early fan, always.

I could go on forever. Something I was worried about when I started being a comedy writer was, if I’m always behind the scenes working on these comedy shows, is it going to kill it for me? Am I going to not be able to enjoy it anymore when it’s one of my first loves? Luckily that has not been the case. I can work on a show all day long and still at night go to a stand-up show and be like, “I love this.” I love to laugh.